Tsiyon Messianic Community

Shalom Loretta,

     If this is your situation, my deepest sympathies to you.  I am sure there are many of us who have been lost in the quagmire of awful advice and recommendation from those who we trusted in Churches, simply because they themselves were Torah-less.  They didn't have the wisdom to delve into our situations, and just often quoted, "God hates divorce".  I read Tsiyon's first post, and it was so refreshing to hear a very human aspect to such a horrible thing...as divorce.  One only has to experience this trauma to understand why YHVH does indeed hate it.   I don't believe it is always because two are at fault.  It does however take two to make a marriage work, but only one to destroy it.  I believe when YHVH speaks of the one with the hardened heart, that He is speaking to the marriage partner who will not repent or change his ways, thusly, forcing the other marriage partner to initiate dissolution. 

I don't think you brought this up as a Pharisee in order to trap Y'shua, but, are honestly seeking answers to a situation that should have been remedied long ago.  It can be soul destroying. 

Perhaps Eliyahu will have wisdom in this kind of scenerio, to work towards a resolution.  I have been divorced once, from a man with a severe pornography addiction and suffered many years from bad pastoral advice only to find out that many times over, those who counselled me had pornography addictions as well.  And now, in my present marriage, I have suffered as well, but this time, my husband has a repentant heart towards me and I so I forgive hoping that YHVH will save him at some future time.  Each individual and situation needs advice, in order to either restore the marriage or give freedom to the wronged spouse. 

It is a shame that women are held in such low esteem, but that "marriage" itself is paraded as that which is to be saved. 

Laurie

graftdn05 ,
I just re-read ,my previous reply to you.
I realize that it might seem to be too harsh.
My-self went trough a divorce.
I was mostly responsible for the situation but for many years (over 15 years) I did everything possible to be forgiven.
I never was forgiven by my ex-wife and after 23 years she asked for a divorce.
( I was already was a Christain, she still is not a believer).
Today I still serve my ex-wife and try to be as good a servant to her as I can be.
My ex-wife has a boy friend, but when she needs help, she does not call him but she calls me and I am very glad that she does.
MY present wife, Mary, supports me all  the way in my efforts because  her and I know that this most likely the only way that my ex-wife will ever know what a Christain really is: a servant.
Our hope is that trough what Mary and I model to her, Yah will draw her to Himself.
This is what I want to say when I say that no matter what wrong we suffer, we need to forgive, to love and to serve, to lay down our life to serve the others.
I pray that Yah will give you His Shalom.( beautiful word and much, much more that what we call peace)
Bert

Hi Bert,

    Wow...what a beautiful way to show love and mercy to your ex wife.  Your wife Mary is a very special woman . 

Laurie

Laurie,
Thank you for your kind words.
Yes Mary is very specail woman.
What I do I do only by Yah' grace and to Him all the glory belongs.
Allelu Yah!.
Shalom.
Bert

Shalom Burt,I'm afraid I was misunderstood.I was looking for something helpful to reassure my sister because she worries so much that she is living in adultery.She was divorced from her 1st husband yrs. ago & married the man she is with now.She left him in the middle of their life together because "the church " had her convinced she was living in adultery.She has recently remarried this man but still worries about being an adultress.It's very complicated & I tried to shorten it.Thanks for trying to help.I"m off to Shabbat now.Loretta

Shavua Tov Loretta! 
I pray that your Shabbat Shalom will last throughout this week and you will be blessed!

Like your sister, I've long struggled with the issue of divorce.  My husband left me for another woman more than 11 years ago.  After the divorce, I came to make a deal with the LORD where I gave HIM total control of my life.  I "knew" (or so I thought) the Scriptures and the church teachings about divorce so I was trying to adjust my thinking that I would have to live out the rest of my life alone or I would be causing another person to sin and committing adultery myself.  I spent a number of years trying to find peace in this.

I thought that I was close to being resigned to this when I received a "word" from the LORD that HE was sending me a "husband".  I struggled to know what to make of this since I knew that the LORD would never do something against HIS WORD.  Over the next 5 years, HE sent "word" to me through many people that I knew as GODly people that loved the LORD concerning my "husband".  HE also sent me "words" and dreams about this over the years. 

A few years ago, I fell in love with TORAH and became a student.  This opened the Scriptures to me in a way that I'd never had before.  However, I found no understanding about this matter of divorce.  I'd set my heart to accept HIS will for my life whatever that meant and just let the matter lie quietly unresolved knowing that HE would help me to understand when the time was right.

 I shared my concerns about this with Dawn and she prompted Brother Eliyahu to address this matter as it's quite clear that there are a lot of hurting people out there struggling with this issue.  His explanation went a long way to ease my fears and concerns.  The pain of living with wrong teachings and the stigma that has been attached to being divorced/abandoned for women runs deep.  The healing takes time.

I humbly suggest that you share with her Brother Eliyahu's explanation from TORAH.  I would print it out and consider it carefully step by step.  I think the major area of confusion comes around Y'SHUA's words about how the Pharisees had made divorce a trivial matter where a man could leave his wife for whatever reason, but when a wife is abandoned for something trivial, society (in their day) would not accept the trivial reason but would make the assumption that the wife had committed adultery and label her as such.

Adultery is a very serious matter throughout Scripture and being labeled as an adulteress could cause a person to be ostracized from the community.  In Y'SHUA's day, a woman ostracized from society would be forced into a difficult life and perhaps even prostitution to survive.  Today, the persecution is much more subtle in the form of gossip in most cases and in a sense of failure and being devalued as a person.

In closing, I considered the conversation between Y'SHUA and the Samaritan woman at the well.  She was a multi-divorcee and yet HE spoke to her and used her to reach her entire community.  HE in no way appeared to condemn her or to look down upon her.  HE was also kind to the woman brought to HIM caught in the act of adultery.  How many today are so willing to reach down and pick up stones to sling at everyone around them?  I think it's not because they have become "righteous" in any way, but that their hearts have become so hardened to their own sinfulness that they don't even see it anymore. 

I pray that you will find the words to bring peace to your sister's heart that a repentent heart is a heart that can receive forgiveness.  I pray she will find forgiveness for those that have condemned her and brought her such pain and that she will be able to forgive herself for where she feels that she's failed.  She is loved by the LORD and accepted as she is.  I pray that she will receive healing for her heart wounds and that she will be filled with the peace and love and joy that only the LORD can bring to a wounded spirit.  I pray these things in Y'SHUA's NAME and for HIS sake.

SueJean

Dear Loretta,

I'm sorry to hear of the pain your sister has suffered. She is but one of a long list of  people I have heard of and have known personally over the years to have gone through the same thing. I wonder why the people who are always saying "grace, grace" never seem to have any for their own walking wounded? These very ones who rail against the Messianics as "Judaizers" seem, nevertheless, to be most like the pharisees (on this issue at least) of whom Yeshua said; "they bind heavy burdens that are grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not lift a finger to help them." Matt 23:4

Why is there grace for everything else but no grace for your sister in her new family? Why aren't those who condemn her for the failed marriage she had instead doing their best to help her succeed with the marriage she HAS? Hasn't anyone ever told these people that YHWH does not require us to go back and change the past? Worst case scenario is that your sister did fail in her marriage. Have none of the rest of us ever failed? Is there no recovery from failure? Do we go on forever in guilt and shame because we failed or are perceived as having failed? Heaven forbid! Messiah died for us so that we can repent of the past and get up in the morning of a new day to serve Him in absolute acceptance and favor! Tell your sister she must believe in the power of the Cross in her life and not in the condemnation of the self-righteous. The big question we all must answer each day is not "what did I do yesterday?" Let go of yesterday! The question is, "what am I doing with today - and the day after that!" Tell your sister MESSIAH DIED TO SET HER FREE! Her duty is to live in that freedom and grace in the warm glow of His love every day starting right now. It is a matter of who she is going to believe. It is a matter of faith.

Blessings in Messiah,

Eliyahu ben David
www.tsiyon.org

Whoaaaa !
It seems that we have endless replies to this subject.
This should not be a surprise since so many of us are either divorced, will divorce or are a victim of divorce.

Loretta,

Yah willing, Mary and I will celebrate our first anniversary on Sept 2dn.
Both of us have been married and divorced before.
Both our ex-spouses are still alive, her husband is re-married and my ex-wife has a boy friend.

It is interesting that neither Mary nor I wished to be married again.
Both of us were very happily living alone.

Neither my ex-wife nor Mary’s ex-husband are Christian.
I believe that this is the main point: if those who divorce and remarry are not Christians then none of this really matters.

If they are Christians then this is very different.
Loretta, is your sister saved?
Is her husband saved?
If yes, then if she has confessed her sin about the divorce, if she was the cause for it, she is forgiven.
The same thing is true for him.

If she was not the cause for the divorce, the really she has nothing to confess or to repent for.
The same thing is true for him.

Yah is gracious and He is eager to forgive us our sins if only we turn to Him and truly repent.

The only question I would have now is: did your sister marry a Christian man?
Are they walking together in the ways of Yeshua?
Are they living together to glorify Him?

Certainly I am not Elohim but I believe that if she can answer yes to the questions above, your sister has nothing to worry about, no matter what the Church or other people might tell her.

If your sister cannot answer the above questions by the affirmative then this is another situation.

Both Mary and I are certain that Yah ordained our marriage and we are very much at peace with it.

My prayer is that your sister can find the same peace and give all the praise and all the glory to Yah.
Shalom.
Bert

Shalom all,thanks for the answers to my Q.You all answered with such love.I will use all these to help her find her place in Y'shua.Another Q Of mine is are all of you post-trib?I've just heard of this since becoming involved with the messianic movement.I'd alway heard & accepted that believers would be raptured out & that the church was Y'shuas bride whilst Israel is YHWH's bride.My goodness,what we've been fed in "church".I'm now searching for truth!I appreciate your help.Love in Messiah,Loretta

Loretta,
This is Bert again.
I was re-reading all the posts while you were posting your last question.
Something came to my mind: Satan, the enemy, love to make us feel guilty about our past sins, even when these ones are already forgiven.
This is for him a way to manipulate us, to control us and to keep us captive.
Could this be the case with your sister?

If she is a born again Christian (I really do not like this expression, I prefer: born from above) as well as her husband, and if they have confessed their sins and accepted Yah's forgiveness, they have to be at peace with their past.
Some people ask to be forgiven for the same sin again and again.
There is something very wrong with that, either they do not believe that Yah is just and faithful and that He forgives or they do not accept to be forgiven.

Some believe that their sin is too big or too bad for Yah to forgive it.
Again this is wrong.

Some again believe that some how they have to pay for their own sin.
You know that it is impossible for us to do so.
Could this be an issue with your sister?

Not knowing your sister or you, I think that you need to have a conversation with her to determine what the source of the issue is.

It seems to me that the Church and Satan use something in her to pry on and to make her feel guilty.
What is it?

It this could be removed then your sister would be free of this feeling which destroy her life.

Shalom,
Bert

Greetings Loretta!   

In searching for truth, you've come to a good place to dig in and learn about all those things that the Church has twisted into something other than what YAHWEH intended.  I recommend that you join the Talmidin Program here and go through these teachings by Brother Eliyahu.  His teaching method is Scriptural based and easy to follow.  I find that I'm able to take the message and follow it through the Scriptures with clear understanding.  One thing that I find is very helpful to me is that the Scriptures are lined up with historical information.  I've also found that I've been able to search out that information for myself after listening to the messages so I don't feel that I'm being asked to believe something "out of the blue".

When I started TORAH study, one of the first things that I learned was about why we need to understand the time in the wilderness.  The lessons learned in that time are the primary things we're going to need to go through the tribulation.  There's a Scripture about a greater "exodos" than the time of Moses and a lot of teachings about the tribulation or time of "Jacob's troubles that teach about how as believers we must endure to the end.  I'm not an expert on any of these things, but I've come to believe that most of what the Church has been teaching over the last 1700 years isn't going to be very helpful to us in the coming days.  (my opinion, of course!)

The best part that I've found about studying here in the Talmidin Program is that no one is telling you what to think or believe and you don't have to accept something just because someone says it's so.  You can listen to the teaching and then search the Scriptures and the historical sources for yourself.  When you have questions/concerns or problems with a message, Brother Eliyahu and Dawn are happy to work with you to help you to understand.  I can attest to that as I've had quite a few questions/stumbling blocks as I've gone along and they've been very generous in their efforts to help me.

I hope this helps!

In Y'SHUA's NAME and for HIS sake,

SueJean   

Divorce
The Bible clearly states that God hates divorce. It just as clearly states that God Himself divorced the children of Israel. You may hate to pay your taxes, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't. You may hate to get your cavities fixed, but that doesn't make it a sin to go to the dentist.

Yeshua (Jesus) told us that Moses gave the people the right to divorce because of the hardness of their hearts. Divorce is not sin! God has never granted man the privilege to sin at any time, and neither did Moses. The purpose of divorce is so that people can get re-married. If people didn't re-marry, they wouldn't need a divorce. If there was no hardness of the human heart, divorce would never have been granted.

Understand that hardness of the heart doesn't always come from both sides. If a man commits adultery, it is not from the hardness of her heart that his wife divorces him. It is because of the hardness of the man's heart that he committed the sin and broke the covenant and trust between them. God's heart was not hardened when He divorced Israel. Their heart was hardened by idolatry. If a man is abusive to a woman verbally and/or physically, it is not from the hardness of her heart that she divorces him. It is because of the hardness of his heart that he was abusive to her. That covers divorce, but there was also putting away. The book of Deuteronomy teaches us that if a virgin bride is found not to be a virgin, she was to be put to death publicly or privately. Now think about Matthew 1:19, which says, "Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily." Joseph was actually thinking about having Mary put to death privately because it was obvious to him that she was not a virgin.

Now consider the words of Yeshua (Jesus) in Matthew 5:31-32.

31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery."

In Hebrew culture, putting away was to put a woman to death. Divorce was to give her a bill of divorcement and to send her away. However, in Roman culture, putting away was said of men who sent their wives out of their houses with nothing but the clothes on their backs, no dowry, no support, no help of any kind. This approach to divorce was problematic among the Romans because after a woman was sent from her house, she would sometimes marry another man only to find out that her former husband was the jealous type. There are stories of men breaking into houses and killing their ex-wife's new husband for committing adultery with his wife. As you may have already guessed, some of the Jews had already begun to use this practice. Jesus was pointing out that the Law clearly stated that a man and woman where not divorced without the bill of divorce. As is the case today, the only way a Jewish couple could get a legal divorce in the time of Jesus was to go to a beit-din which was a Jewish court. There, men would be forced to give their ex-wives support, especially if there where children involved. It was much more lucrative for these men to just send the women away. Jesus goes on to point out that the men who sent their wives out of their homes without a decree of divorce caused their wives to commit adultery because they were not legally divorced. Further, the men these woman marry committed adultery as well. It can be further stated, that if the man who sent his wife away without a bill of divorce re-marries, he, also, commits adultery.

Jewish law actually forbad any person from staying married to an abusive spouse. It was very much within their God-given authority over the people to make such a law, just as Moses did. It was called binding and loosing. Whatever the court decided was right was bound on earth and in heaven, and whatever was overturned by those courts was loosed on earth and in heaven. That should sound familiar to you.

The reason why it was against the law for spouses to stay in an abusive environment was to protect the spouse from being abused and the children. Children who are raised by abusive parents, become abusive parents.

It should be noted that pastors of Churches, large organizations such as the Assemblies of God or small independent groups, do not have the right to setup or institute beit-dins. The beit-dins were governed by rabbis who were trained doctors of the law of God, or Old Testament. These were men trained in the proper translation and application of the Scriptures, not men educated in Bible colleges and seminaries. It is also important to note that these beit-dins where, in fact, part of the Christian existence in the time of the Apostles as evidenced in their writings. In 1 Corinthians 6:1, Paul said, "Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?" Paul was commanding his followers to take their matters to the beit-din's, not the secular courts. Another example is found in Acts 15:28, which says, "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;" It is clear that James was the head of the beit-din and was making a ruling on a matter that had been brought before them. Once the decision of the court was announced, it was bound on earth and in Heaven.



Shalom,


Allon
*********************************

Shalom! Never too late to contribute, I hope! 
This is a serious topic that has troubled many, and another article to clear the air
would be great. Most of it has been explained very well by Eliyahu; there are some
extra good points here.

Love in Messiah Yahshua,
Ester.

Shalom 4Yahshua!

The world is in gross darkness and wickedness, but we are of light and called to shine.
We shall abide in the Light, and not have fellowship with the works of darkness.

Many are the afflictions of the righteous, Psalms 34:19, but YAHWEH delivers him out of them all. Amein!

Some will be vessels unto honour and others unto destruction, whether by choice or bound by slavery through deception. Forces of deception are working overtime!

We need to press forward, to higher ground, to Mt Tsion, not looking back. Not to give up hope, but stand strong in YAHWEH for your two grown kids; covering them with prayers and love; that's half the battle won! It is a tug of war!

We need to take the Kingdom by force too-standing in the gap, as watchmen, and prayer warriors.

You are one brave lady of light, walking out of an abusive relationship takes a lot of courage!!
Love and hugs to you, in Yahshuah,
Ester.

Shalom shalom Jayna,

He was instrumental in reconciling you to our YAHWEH GOD, but your continual walk and growth in HIM is personal. You have over-taken him in the race; Who knows, he may pick himself up by the grace of ABBA, should he seek for healing for his spiritual sight to be restored, he will be back in the race! Maybe he needs to taste swine food for a period, to realise it's disgusting!!!
Please pray for his conscience to be not hardened, but alive to YAHWEH.
I sense your inner grief as you share about your children, and I can relate to that; I used to pray against ABBA's words that many are called, but few will be chosen; the path is narrow, and not many will find it....I cried my heart out ..no, no!
We can fight against lies and deception, but we can't fight against truth! Amein!!
Who knows, race is not yet over; we, the 'weirdos', do see the finishing line, and desperately fighting to finish well; at great cost for most.

But, it surely is worth it! "...let us lay aside every weight and the sin that so easily beset us, and run with patience the race that is set before us..... For consider Him that endured such contradiction of sinners against Himself, lest we be wearied and faint in our minds. -Hebs 12: 1, 3.

"As for me, I will behold Your face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with Your likeness."!! Amein! Ps 17: 15

We are so blessed, sister!
Love and hugs in Yahshuah, the Alef Tav of our faith!
Ester.
P/S I know you made mention of my name in one of the posts, need to find it!!  The way I spell it is the way it's written in Hebrew, without the 'h'; and I've discovered it is Babylonian; used by Queen Ester as a guise to hide her Jewish identity. Will write on it, searching for your post now.  Take care.

Thank you. I am in same situation. My husband married another woman without divorcing me and had children with her. They have now gotten an anulment (2008) since only the marriage to me is legal. He has yet to divorce me and I wasn't sure if it was okay for me to take action.