Tsiyon Messianic Community

Greetings, Bert;

Thanks for the kind reply.  In regards to the phrase "hid our faces", would I have been more correct in saying, "disparaissez la figure(s)"? 

It's a fact that Moses wandered in the wilderness far fewer years than it's been since I studied French.  I'm quite rusty at it, but would like to get back at it.  So, if you ever feel the urge to "speak in tongues" as Eliyahu did, don't hesitate to throw it in.  You never can tell when the Lord might speak through a single word or phrase.  And, it doesn't have to be in French.  I can buy just about any language dictionary.  How about Siamese? Or, maybe the tongue of Eire? Or maybe...?

By the way, according to Webster's dictionary, "hoot" has two meanings, both as a verb: 1.  "to utter a loud shout..."  2.  "to make the characteristic cry of an owl". 

I think the intended use in "mtnmama's" post could be more like an adjective, as in, "You guys are (funny)".  More specifically, and in harmony with Webster, it could be more robust like a phrase I've often hear,"You guys are (a barrel of laughs)"--really funny.

Have a terrific Son-shine day in Messiah!

Shalom,
Danny Lee Ben-Israel

Hoot!!!  You all are a HOOT! haha
yes, for me it is part of my southern slang upbringing by way of WVA, SC, FL, TX (I'm an air force brat) for YOU ARE FUNNY!!!

I had a father from the south and a mother from the northwest and southern California and we traveled a lot being military.

A funny story.  When my family moved up here in Nov. 2004, my son-in-law, Chris, was working at a rock quarry and was rooming with some guys on site and then would come home on weekends.  Being from Florida, having never been exposed to the Amish, Mennonites or Hutterites my son-in-law didn't think about using the term "hoot."

Anyway, there was a Hutterite bunking in his trailer with him and did something funny so Chris told him, "You're a hoot."

Next thing you know Chris is getting a shiner!!!  The Hutterite thought Chris was making fun of him for being a HOOTerite!  We all got a laugh out of that even Chris.

So, I tend to be careful with that word around here. haha
They do raise some really good chickens for market  YUM YUM!

Be blessed you guys,
vkm

According to the book of Hebrews, the blood of bulls and goats did one thing: they purified to the sanctifying of the flesh. If u wanted to meet God in HIS House, then you were to follow His protocol.

Heb 9:13  For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

The early assembly participated in the Temple service, and could be considered a Temple sect...they were ALWAYS and continually in the Temple.
Acts 21, Paul along with other disciples, are making sacrifices in fulfilling a Nazarite vow.

Our Messiah says there will be another altar set up in Jerusalem, and that the one who opposes it is called antichirst.

I think we need to reconsider a few things that we have been taught...
Ruchamah

I have been keeping up with the discussion here on the temple and sacrifices and want to ask a question regarding Matthew 24 with what Yeshua says about the abomination of desolation also mentioned in Daniel. If the altar in Daniels time was desecrated which brought on the revolt of the maccabees to retake the temple back to Israel and thus we have Celebration of Channukah. My question is that the coming days prior to the entrance of the Anti messiah. If he is to desecrate it as it was in the book of Daniel wouldnt it be called "HOLY" by the Most High? It seems for something to be desecrated it is made HOLY and to my understanding that the anti messiah will put up his image and do to the altar as was done in Daniel.

Thank you
Shalom
Chaviva

Welcome and thank you for your question! 

The prophecy of the abomination of desolation spoken of through Daniel the prophet was fulfilled in the first century upon the holy city, Jerusalem. Notice these parellel verses from Matthew 25:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 below:

Mat 24:15 “When, therefore, you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
Mat 24:16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Here is the same thing in Luke:

Luk 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is at hand.
Luk 21:21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let those who are in the midst of her depart. Let those who are in the country not enter therein.

In comparing these verses it is quite clear that "the abomination of desolation ... standing in the holy place" in Matthew is the same as "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" in Luke. This was fullfilled in Yeshua's generation when the Pagan Roman armies surrounded Jerusalem on the soil of the Holy City, then later withdrew. That was the signal for the believers to flee, according to Yeshua. Note that on that occassion the Romans did not set foot in the Temple. It was not until the Romans returned after a period of retreat that Jerusalem and the Temple were finally destroyed. From this fulfillment of prophecy it is clear that the "holy place" that was desecrated by the "abomination of desolation" was Jerusalem - not the Temple.

We have discussed this in some of our previous programs and will be getting into relevant prophecy for our day in future programs.

Blessings in Messiah,

Eliyahu ben David
www.tsiyon.org

Interesting answer...Are u saying that the abomination will not happen again?
It seems to have happened at least twice in the past., Antiochus and Titus.

Thank you Eliyahu for your reply,

I am not good with forums as most times I lurk and read. So here goes. I am not disagreeing about the days when the romans destroyed the temple after 70 AD but in the verses following in Matthew 24 is mentioned the word "tribulation" (Mat. 24: 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.) I dont believe that the second temple destruction was then the "tribulation." I realise after then the apostles were martyred and many fled from Jerusalem it was something they did face as a tribulation but not in the end days for us which we will face. But Matthew also continued to speak of "false messiahs" would come, but what of the "son of perdition" spoken of in 2 Thes:
(2 Thes. 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means, for that day [catching up of chosen ones] shall not come, until there comes the apostacy first, and also the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition;4 Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called G-d, or that is worshipped; so that he as G-d sits in the temple of G-d, showing himself that he is G-d.) It says that the anti messiah will be sitting in the "temple of G-d" as if he were G-d.   This apparently says there will be a temple obviously for him to enter and claim he is G-d. To me this is why I see Matthew 24 referring to the abomination of desolation. This is the "lawless one" who comes and makes his throne and many will be deceived. There are many patterns repeated in scripture and this is what I see here is repeated from Daniel. In Matthew 24:3 the disciples were asking"...Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"  They knew that Yeshua was returning, His answer referred to the age before His return, and what to expect. I didnt see it as this was fulfilled when the Romans destroyed the second temple, but it was a time when there would be another.

Thank you for this forum where we can discuss scripture like this.
Shalom
Chaviva

I fully agree with Elyahu's answer.
This is why I am mid-preterist.

I believe that what Yeshua annouced will happen before this generation passes away, has in fact happen in AD70 and AD135, and that to wait for them to happen again is foolishness.

Why would Yeshua have told his audience that these things would come to pass in "this generation",if in fact they did not?

Was Yeshua trying to deceive the people?   
Did He not know what He was talking about?

Of course all these things happened just as our Savior told us they would.
That we do not see them or that we do not understanding then is our issue.
The issue is not that Messiah misleaded anyone or that He did not know what He was talking about.
Shalom.
Bert

Shalom Chaviva,

In reading over your comments I don't think we are terribly far apart in our understanding of what is expected to happen according to the verses cited. Any difference has more to do with interpretation of those events.

The point of my previous post is that the "holy place" is Jerusalem - not the Temple. That fact is well established by the verses I cited.

Further, in many important ways the "great tribulation" that came upon 1st century Judea will be parelleled in the events of this final generation when THE great tribulation breaks out upon the world.

To be clear, I do in fact believe that the temple will be rebuilt before the Return of Messiah. The verse you quote in 2 Thes. 2:3 is one indication of that. There are others also.

The big question is: will the rebuilding of the Temple be approved by YHWH? Many think so. I do not. I have already explained why not in a previous post. Now I will tell you what I see happening: At the beginning of the final 7 years of this Age the leadership of the State of Israel then in power will sell out the "holy place" (Jerusalem) for "peace" and for the right to build their "Holy Temple" on the Temple Mount. Jerusalem will then be known as an "international city" (read "Gentile") but will in reality have been sold out to the Beast in the unholy deal. The Temple will go up, but at what cost? Israel's leaders will have sold out Jerusalem (the holy place) to get what they want, thereby handing over the holy city into the hands of "the abomination that causes desolation." As a direct result of all this unholy deal-making the "man of sin" will actually present himself to the world as god from the newly built unholy temple. There will be many lying signs and wonders accompanying all of this and most of the people of the world will be so over-awed by it that they will believe it is of God. In reality, the whole thing from soup to nuts is profoundly evil and will bring great tribulation, followed by Yah's wrath, upon the world. 

The Scriptural backing for this scenario is far too lengthy to present here and it is the sort of thing that can't be given in pieces  - which is why I am working on a book that will explain all of this and more from Scripture.  This is a vitally important subject that needs to be well explained in advance so that the people of Yah will know the truth and not be deceived by the coming bogus temple. You can find what we have already taught relative to all of this in some of our earlier radio programs. Following is a list of some of these programs and resources that apply:

http://tsiyon.org/podcast/kingdom_curses/

http://tsiyon.org/podcast/kingdom_commotions/

http://tsiyon.org/podcast/kingdom_judgment/

http://tsiyon.org/podcast/zechariah_11_commentary/

http://tsiyon.org/podcast/last_days_jerusalem/

Further questions you may have on this will likely be answered in the material cited above.

Thanks again for posting in our forum!   

Shalom!

Eliyahu ben David
www.tsiyon.org

Greetings Bro,

As you can probably see from my last post, my position is not mid-preterist, just to be clear about that.   

Nevertheless, I believe that prophecy already fulfilled is very important.  As you say, "all these things happened just as our Savior told us they would."  These fulfilled prophecies confirm the truth of Yah's Word and also set a pattern for future fulfillment.

Regarding the "generation" that Yeshua singled out - He definately did single out the generation of His day. However, His Olivet prophecy definately has another fulfillment in the final generation of this world, in which we are now living.  The programs cited in the previous post explain this double fulfillment in some detail, for anyone who desires further information about this.

Blessings to you brother!

Eliyahu ben David
www.tsiyon.org

Elyahu,
This is why I am mid-preterist.
Some but not all of the prophecies were realized in the time of Yeshua.
Some are realized in two steps, one step in Yeshua's time and another step still to come.
(This is what I undertstand but I am not ready to fight over that because what I really believe is that no one knows for sure and that what some hold for true is in reality mere speculation).

Shalom.
Bert

Hey Bert, thanks for clarifying. I understand your position better now!

Blessings,  Eliyahu

Hello and shalom unto you

It seems to me that many profecys are repeated, mabey somewhat different. Like the defiling the temple.........this was also done long before yeshua was born, by the man with the difficult name (lol)
when he let the pigs in the temple.
Same with the persecution of the jews around 70 ad, they had to flee to Petra. Also the scattering of israel seems to have taken place more then once.

About the sacrifieces and building a third temple (ezekiel), i am not sure that this is of God. David wanted to build a temple, but was not allowed Solomon did, but God said i don t want a house build with hands. But allowed him to build it, with the material David had ready.

God also said: I will raise the tabernacle of david, but does this mean a real tabernacle or does it mean the house of david in yeshua?

I see the anti-christ have a saying in it. To win votes, so to speak. At first he allows the sacrifieces, then after a certain time he forbids it and shows his true colors. So i don t think the third temple and the new sacrificiel system is something to embrase.

Its profecied...yes by ezekiel, but a profecy can also be something he saw, not as a requierment, but what will happen.

So far my thoughts on it, its how i see it, This does not neccesarely means i am right tho.

Greetings from Emje

Emje,


It is correct that many prophecies have a double fulfillment/revelation.
One in the time of the prophet and a second one at a later time.

A while ago I was reading something pretty intriguing.
The article I was reading said that the Ultra Orthodox Jews want a new temple so bad that they will allied themselves with the anti-christ so that either this one will build the temple for them or at least he will give his blessing to its construction (he too wants the temple so that he can be"worshiped " in it)

Emje, do you know this very interesting website?

http://www.templeinstitute.org/main.htm

I hope this help.
Shalom.
Bert

hello

thank you for answering me
the idea you mention about the jews wanting the temple so bad.....etc is excectly what i mean. Since the sanhedrin is re-installed in israel i hear all kinds of things about it. But what is worse, i hear some  messianic  believers say that we as messianics have to rejoice when the temple is rebuild so we can go worship and sacrifiece again. One of them told me specificly not to fight it, but go along with it. Otherwise i belong to AC, for me its just the opposite.
There is so much division in understanding all this, makes me crazy sometimes....
Emje